Fri 21 Nov 2008
Here’s an FJM style breakdown of Carl McDade’s well thought out and persuasive article. Haha…no really it’s just flamebait crap. That was a joke. There are three more scattered through this post. See if you can find them.
A few years ago a friend of mine tried to convince me to learn ASP.NET because it was much better for my web development career than PHP.
I know this friend. Huge success. He made millions building a site where people could post pics of cats with witty captions. Now he spends his days drinking Mojitos and reading old Dilbert comics - all thanks to the power of .Net and the lifeforce of crazy cat lovers.
His feeling was that ASP.NET a.k.a “.NET professional” is a real profession that requires education and training while PHP only required a text editor. That PHP would never be taken seriously by serious companies.
I interviewed at a Microsoft Certified Serious Company once. Wasn’t actually a real interview. They just called me in to make fun of my PHP experience. Then they took my lunch money and threw my backpack in a tree. I told my mom I tripped and dropped it off a bridge. Needless to say I swore of Serious Companies going forward.
Regardless of how many Facebooks and Diggs show up on the web PHP will always only be given the same importance as HTML or JavaScript.
Hands down my favorite sentence of the article. Frankly I agree with him here. PHP should be given the same importance as HTML and JavaScript. Which is to say they should all be considered very important. Obviously he was going in the other direction and even if Facebook gets drunk and hooks up with Digg and they produce a mass of FaceDigg offspring you will never change his mind.
Popularity figures from the fortune 1000’s servers show that ASP.NET is the unchallenged leader of the corporate market share. Microsoft ASP.NET sites have grown by 7.9% since 2005, And ASP.NET/ASP still lead Application Server technologies.
Interesting stats. Here’s my counter: How many of those Fortune 1000 sites are really just content sites describing the company and what it does and how friggen rad the management team is? When in actuality the company has a ton of other servers running apps built with PHP, Rails, Python, Perl, Java…
“ASP.net: When you really just want to work on content management systems.™”
When I take a look at all the PHP job ads and compare them to ASP.NET job ads there is something that is missing from the ASP.NET announcements. This is “must be able to show previous work.” This same line or something similar is one that shows in web designer job ads, PHP, JavaScript, HTML and Flash.
Carl’s brain: “Shit, I forget to trash Flash earlier. I’ll just sneak it in now. Whew, that was close. Back to stoking those pissy little PHP developers.”
This demand is never or seldom seen in ads for ASP.NET web developers. To me this means that employers are taking ASP.NET more seriously than PHP.
Or it means they’re sick of looking at CMSs.
Unit testing, design patterns and other tools of software development cannot remove the mental label that has been placed on PHP by businesses. PHP to them is nothing more than a glorified front-end template language.
People once thought the Earth was flat. And that made it true. It wasn’t until people starting believing the Earth was round that it actually became round. I’m serious. Until we can get businesses to believe in unit testing, design patters and software development tools for PHP they just won’t exist. PHP developers will be stuck using WordPad as their IDE and testing their programs on lab mice.
One of the things that I have been running into of late is having spent the last three years doing only PHP. It was a mistake, one that I will not make again by doing Ruby on Rails or learning any other scripting language that does not require minimal knowledge of computer science disciplines.
Wait. I could have sworn Carl just wrote he was going to start using Ruby on Rails because PHP wasn’t popular enough with the Fortune 1000 companies. Clearly I’m mistaken. Let me check that again. Nope. Shit, I’m starting to think Carl might not be the most credible resource. Not 100% sure yet. Call it a gut feeling.
I also don’t recommend that anyone that is looking to start a long term career in web programming start with PHP. This is because you will be in competition for work with people that come looking for jobs with a background in Java, .NET and C language.
Now I’m completely confused. Why would Java and .NET developers be competing for PHP work? Haven’t we already proven that those language are 10X more widely used and 100x more Serious®? I guess they just want the challenge of coding in a language that only has 3 functions and no support for “if” statements (coming soon in PHP6).
When it comes to development tools Visual Studio stands out from the crowd. It has a reputation that is so well ingrained into IT that mentioning it in an interview or having it on your CV quells many doubts that employers have about your knowledge.
Once I was in an interview and they asked me what program I developed in. I answered “FrontPage” and managed to keep a straight face for about 5 full seconds. Ah, that was fun.
The same is not true of PHP. Zend Studio, Net Beans, and other IDE’s like Komodo are not well known outside of the geek sector of IT.
Are people really picking their application stack based on the IDE’s available? Really Carl? Really?
If you are good in ASP.NET and have used any of the commercial Microsoft publishing systems like Sharepoint then you will see recruiters eyes light up.
Recruiter’s eyes light up if you say once successfully installed AOL and responded to an “A/S?” post in a chat room. We’re not exactly talking about a hard group to win over.
The problem with PHP is that there is no commercial PHP content management product that is popular or visible to the general audience of corporate IT workers.
Apparently he’s never heard of a little product called WordPress…
While you can mention CMSs like Joomla, Wordpress or Drupal these are only known to a select group of techies and not considered to be comparable to anything on the commercial market on any level.
I will bet you the souls of one hundred hobbits (don’t worry I have enough to spare) that if we polled a random group of recruiters, businesspeople, moms, recent outer world arrivals, and black plague victims resurrected from the dead, that WordPress would be far more widely known then Sharepoint and Vignette (a perl product he also mentions.)
The above reasons are why I am dusting off my C++ books and will go through some refreshers. Then later on next month I will be dropping PHP and doing only ASP.NET. Richard if you are reading this you were right and I have learned my lesson.
Hey ASP.NET, don’t say we didn’t warn you about Carl. In two years when he hits you in the back with a steel chair and tears off his shirt to reveal a J3EE shirt don’t come crying to us.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 5:26 am
what a funny response, congrats!
Carl ended up showing why the world economy is just as it is now. My answer to him:
“I think that the pink box at the end of your article, end up explaining lots of things:
“Ten years of experience in web development. Carl is looking for in employment as a Senior PHP/mySQL Developer in Stockholm.”
Have you just got dropped by a 20y/o geek, wich, with little to no retoric knowledge, had much more to offer to your company than a bloated old developer?
Well Carls, the Fortune 1000 gigants are just the ones that end up falling in the upcoming recession just because of thoughts like the ones you presented here: old fashion, cornered and tied to “insurance” and “security” and “what the market wants and offer”. The time of people and companies like you that believe in auto-sufficient huge stuffs - companies, tools, systems - is ending, while you are getting hitted so hard by the crisis and some bunch of open source based tiny and medium professionals and companies are not just not suffering that hard are they are rising and taking something out of the market share.
You saw, I’ve just defended my idea without harming other people work. You could try it anytime.
But I must admit, you came from the PHP world, totally. Cuz only coming from a higly supported open source community, you would bother defending your beloved tool.
“;
btw thanks for pointing FJM link, they’re so funny too!
November 22nd, 2008 at 11:46 am
Hey Rafael,
Your probably dead on with your assessment about Carl’s current situation. Not sure how he is ever going to get another PHP job after that article. Plus, according to his profile page, he’ll soon be releasing “[his] own version of the Drupal content management system software.” What good will it be if he isn’t going to support it beyond next month?
I actually got an early preview of his CMS. It was full of self loathing and feelings on inadequacy. The dashboard area was titled “Depths of Despair” and logout button was replaced with a “Goodbye Cruel World” button. Kind of sad really.
-Matt
November 25th, 2008 at 11:21 am
Well I tried to go to his profile page and got this error.
Fatal error: Duplicate entry ‘0′ for key 1 query: INSERT INTO sessions (uid, sid, hostname, timestamp) values(0, ‘livbf1ng7clbjchdkd8q1sgal0′, ‘152.228.145.111′, 1227640839) in /home/.ephelia/hiveking/hiveminds.co.uk/hm/includes/database.mysql.inc on line 125
So not like it’s a huge loss to the PHP world.
November 25th, 2008 at 12:14 pm
Thanks for that article! After reading his post, I was seriously wondering why it was written and who would take it seriously. I’m a php and .net person so I’m not bias… I like both of them.
November 25th, 2008 at 12:54 pm
Someone should tell Carl it’s not the size of his IDE that counts but how you use it.
November 26th, 2008 at 12:06 am
[...] PHP Is A Spork, Not A City Destroying Monster :: PseudoCoder.com [...]
November 26th, 2008 at 2:37 am
[...] the PseudoCoder blog Matt has a new post - “PHP is a spork, Not a City Destroying [...]
November 26th, 2008 at 3:22 am
[...] the PseudoCoder blog Matt has a new post - “PHP is a spork, Not a City Destroying [...]
November 26th, 2008 at 4:12 am
A+ sir
November 26th, 2008 at 11:15 pm
Yeah, I posted a reply to Carl on my blog also: http://loveandtheft.org/2008/11/27/did-you-loose-your-job-to-a-geek-15-years-younger-then-you/
Seriously Carl, stop embarassing yourself.
November 27th, 2008 at 12:24 am
Nice article. You pretty much covered my responses to his as I was reading it. I really don’t get the world-wide bashing of PHP that seems to go on. I mean, there are a couple of random things when comparing with null (that are easy to get around) and the function names/argument orders are pretty annoying sometimes, but it can be used to write great apps. Saying that, I’m only really a PHP/Python person so maybe I just missed something!
Entertaining article, anyway!
November 30th, 2008 at 8:06 am
Great response! The PHP bashing and claims that it’s not enterprise ready, doesn’t scale, and isn’t a “professional platform” are getting very old. You’d think the the number of “serious companies” using the language these days those suspicions would be quelled by now!
December 27th, 2008 at 6:41 am
I am myself a .net and php developer and after getting through the initial differences between them I believe that most of the issues raised against php are not true and it can be a really great platform to develop on if used correctly.